Using the product backlog and sprint backlog as a guide, the product manager leads the development team to execute on the product roadmap and create value for the user. Amazon / Eng RonHubbard. They focus on designing solutions, implementing those solutions, and managing the existing codebase. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining. In most companies, the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands. Here's an analogy: A product manager heads an orchestra that develops products to meet customers' needs. Amazon, Go to company page Tech people in large, cannot, and will not be able to grow a business - they typically just know how to code a program. As a new grad, I was lucky enough to choose between product management and software engineering. Of course, some tension is inevitable even healthy. Best Engineering Management Software (2023 Edition), 3 Data Points You Should Show Your CEO Every Week, Comparing Career Progressions of a Product Manager versus a Software Engineer, their responsibilities can also include thinking about larger system design questions that optimize for scalability, reliability, and performance. Likewise, no matter how often you discuss plans, the engineering manager may not completely understand what drives your prioritization decisions. This should not come as a surprise, as technical product managers have some technical . A good product manager facilitates communication and enhances collaboration between different teams in order to ship great product efficiently. But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. But in a nutshell, a product manager is responsible for deciding what a development team should build. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. No one in SWE is making 400k working light hours. Practice with our team of senior tech coaches. tech lead, 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a PM. In statistics, a confounder (also confounding variable, confounding factor, extraneous determinant or lurking variable) is a variable that influences both the dependent variable and independent variable, causing a spurious association.Confounding is a causal concept, and as such, cannot be described in terms of correlations or associations. I am starting to look but having no luck in getting the resume shortlisted by recruiters. Natus dolorum quibusdam quia quisquam sequi. Pay in the US at growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels. I found a PM position at Hertz that could be a great fit. AMD, Go to company page Thanks for sharing. Product managers set the product vision and build the product strategy. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. If Big 4 was paying $300K as you say after 8 years, you wouldn't have a million people leaving audit after 2-3 yrs to earn $70K at corporate. Thank you for the explanation, i was definitely confusing the 2. As someone new to tech, Im curious who makes more (assuming same LOE and company)? Product managers define the "why" and the "what" that engineers will build. I keep trying to edit this dumpster fire of a comment and fucking it up. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Do you see what I'm getting at here? What do would you choose and why? Services to level up your career. Method 1: Transfer Internally (with the help of an internal advocate) 99% of cs guys have the social skills of a dung bettle. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. Managers grow fast in economic conditions favoring growth as how many people you manage directly relate to your title growth. Fuck me. He is the co-founder and CEO of Aha! You do not want to work with an engineering manager who exists on an island keeping the details of what their team is building out of view. corp fin advisory), not audit. Enabling and driving the development team to launch various features. Apple, Go to company page And if you're a good SWE, you'll get paid way more than a good PM. As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. Find out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO. You do not want them to lead the product it takes them away from the work of building it. Eng, Go to company page The "product manager" title has become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to establish an exact definition. Exponent's system design interview course. You can always transition between the two roles later. I can provide more in DM. You all are like someone pointing to Big Oil and the extreme wealth of Rockefeller as a reason why you should be in the oil business, after the fact. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. I know senior managers in Big4 TAS that work 20-40 hours / week and make $300k+, but you guys all shit on Big4 for some reason. Product Manager. #pm #product #productmanage, I am currently a Glorified secretary. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . I have the option to work remote in Singapore, or relocate to the UK. Maintain and monitor software to ensure proper functioning. As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. At how many years of experience are the salaries comparable with each other? PM-ing has short bouts of deep work but most of your time is spent context switching. The development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them. Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. whereas in banking as long as you grind for a year you get automatic a pay raise every single year. Bank of America, Go to company page Product engineering is responsible for developing the product and keeping it operating. Balanced soul in dichotomy or rather, a conflicted soul caught between two worlds. Howz the pay and work life balance? Microsoft The tech economy is way larger than the handful of BBs and EBs. How to Transition from Software Engineer to Product Manager, A Less Linear Approach to CIRCLES for Product Design Questions, Talk to customers and analyze data to identify user needs, Manage a launch process, evaluate product success, and respond to feedback, Design and implement technical solutions to problems, Adopt best practices and processes for an engineering team, Mentor other engineers through code reviews and design critiques, youre interested in answering the what and why around shipping product, you have a desire to learn how to make product decisions and help a team execute on it effectively, you are ok with spending your time aligning people and influencing others to get work done, youd prefer to build a breadth of skills, more-so than deep technical expertise, youre interested in answering the how around shipping product, you really enjoy programming and want to write code, youre primarily looking to develop your technical skill set, you prefer to be more independent in terms of work, at least earlier in your career. 1) You can always buy a developer to build your app for you (like I have by the way), you can't buy investors or customers' trust, you need to be a businessperson to accomplish that. Companies really want to hire PMs with past PM experience, so jobs #2, 3, etc. Interpersonal tension is only compounded by the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture. Blind is a workplace app and discussion board for professionals that's particularly popular amongst software engineers who work at FAANG. Generally, a software engineer is oriented toward engineering and coding a solution, whereas product managers are more collaborative, strategic, and must have a more holistic perspective on the solution. I work in a startup. People seem to believe that the management one is easier to climb, but it boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses. Same base but slightly less RSUs. WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file, Great Discussion on Blind: Software Engineers talking about working 15-20 hrs a week and earning 400k, Low Testosterone in IB (or high finance in general), Care for eachother, Care for the Community, Look to Grow, Tier 2 RX (Ducera/Gugg) vs MM IBD (HL, Blair, Piper, Baird). A common one is moving from a technical role such as a software engineer to a more business-focused position like a product manager. zuhayeer. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. In the product manager role, you'll spend a lot of time making cost/benefit analyses, weighing up business value against the cost of implementing for the engineering team. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? The existence of confounders is an important . would love to connect with PM folks waiting to join Meta. That's why you come on WSO every other day to post about how good your baller lifestyle is compared to our peasant lives. That being said, please don't think that tons of 400k 20 hour a week tech jobs are just falling out of the sky for CS majors from no name schools. Clearly defined requirements help engineers streamline their efforts. wanted to get some guidance. It costs you nothing and can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship. I bet this question is for those in HR , levels.fyi is probably another good source, At workday. Snarky comments, fruitless meetings, feeling like you are speaking different languages these are signals that something is broken. If your company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow. Getting a job at Google is much harder than getting a job at a. But not too many.2. During my time ux used to serve some product work. Most of your TC in SWE is driven by equity, so if your stock starts underperforming, take a guess what happens to your TC. Pay differs drastically between departments. Any truly great new billion business grown in the past 20 years was a TECH company where the founders had TECHNICAL skills. Yeah, hence my question.. Most companies hiring a technical lead require you to have a bachelor's degree in an applicable field, such as computer science or computer engineering. Editors note: This post was updated in February 2023. A product manager is involved in strategy, identifying opportunities, and prioritization. I am an engineer who transitioned to Product Management so I am mor. Square More and more people are considering making career pivots. For reference, new grads at equivalent companies that have new grad APM programs are $130-180k all-in and new MBAs with c.3-6 years of exp (typically outside of product) come in at around $190-225k. #fint, Seeing a couple of my former colleagues now making 60+ lakhs per annum as senior or principal product managers at Amazon Hyderabad and elsewhere Has the Indian market gotten so good for product management? PMs work with various stakeholders such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and business development. Is this true? From entry-level, you can advance to senior level then staff level. How are you managing this? Thanks!#pm #pm #productmanager #apple, Hey everyone. A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. Wondering if i should start applying those? They require a deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages. Will going into the management route always make more or can experienced engineers still make the same amount or more?Im wondering if it would be better to just try and stick to an engineering role or go into a management role sooner than later. And despite having good intentions, you get in each other's way. Uber, Go to company page Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. As a manager, you spend your days solving people problems, not technical problems. IB / PE. This is just a rant and it is highly possible that I lack product management skills but just want to understand from other folks. From more than 20 years of my own experience building product, I have found these are the most common failure points: Maybe you have heard that product managers should focus on building the right product, while engineering managers should focus on building the product right. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any. Microsoft 1) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g. After all, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg and Larry Page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait. Cant compare principal with SDM. DM if interested in knowing more!! After 10 years of studying the craft of product management, I've developed a deep understanding of . Pay is similar. Software development is so taxing. At Meta PM is about 85% of EM. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. Eng, Go to company page Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . Good / great work life balance.25 - 30 hours a week max. Amazon, Go to company page The engineering manager needs to know the high-level strategy as well as feature-level details. Engineering managers want to build it. It can push you to get better. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy. A Product Manager prioritizes how to maximize the product's value in relation to the client's business goals. First and foremost, a software engineer is an engineer. Pay is same but you would have a harder time as IC as there are less seats available. https://us.teamblind.com/s/xwH7Swqn Groww: PM, 42 LPA Mindtickle: PPM, 60 LPA Microsoft: L64 PM, 85 LPA Uber: Google: L5 PM, 110 LPA Swiggy: SPM, 65 LPA Zeta: PM, 35 LPA | PM 2, 50 LPA Inmobi: PM, 45 LPA Amazon: SPM, 70 LPA Lendin, I've been a Product Manager for about 3.5 years now and was previously a software engineer for about 3 years. Aha! Learner. Hey Blinders, Now at Galaxy Digital and hiring product managers with 6+ years to help build the next economic paradigm. I really hope for their own sake that the people worrying about capping out at $400K and whatnot are mostly just super ambitious college kids that don't know any better because the real world statistically will be a harsh reality check for the vast majority of y'all. Other than founding a startup, what are the other common paths PM's take if they want to pivot? 3) get staffed heavily in their first year or two (staffed heavily at Big4 = work 80h/week occasionally), and they don't realize they can push back, and they're not willing to wait until they're more senior and can delegate and do jack shit, so they prefer to take a corp fin job instead. I am not hating on the role; It's just not my cup of tea. I have 5 YOE . There is truth in this. Be quick to sing their praises and give credit where it is due. Read about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more. Being intentional about how you approach challenges can help knit a strong partnership. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. Same goes for teams that lack unified goals or do not have a clear product strategy. I am seeing lot of Product Owner roles in market. We want to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into 2023! Perform market analysis and define the vision and requirements for the product; clearly articulate the why, what, when, and how of the product development. Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization's success. There is no such path in Tech (unicorn startup odds suck). A software engineer is involved in the implementation. Learn everything you need to ace your software engineering interviews. Or still a 'job hop' stigma? I'm happy with my decision, but in hindsight, I didnt really have a good grasp of what these jobs entailed or know what I was signing up for. Ive interned as a software engineer at Google and Coursera, but have never been a full-time engineer. PMs are closer to business critical decisions and their work impacts many other people in an organization, so theyre likely to get more responsibility early in their career. PMs please help!Tc: 280k, Go to company page nowhere near. Product gaps vs. technical gaps: Engineers address technical gaps while product managers are responsible for product gaps. The best part is that all you tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and well-socialized. You cannot be serious if you think being a software engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur. Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. business area. Get an inside look at top companies interview processes. Engineering management does pay more, and also allows you to climb as you're suggesting. Eng, Go to company page Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. Collaborate with product managers and UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications. Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way. 300+ video lessons across 6 modeling courses taught by elite practitioners at the top investment banks and private equity funds -- Excel Modeling -- Financial Statement Modeling -- M&A Modeling -- LBO Modeling -- DCF and Valuation Modeling -- ALL INCLUDED + 2 Huge Bonuses. Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page I'm currently an Associate in IB, but if I were to choose my career path again, I'd suck it up and do CompSci and maybe transition to a technical Product Manager role. Tons of unicorn tech startups, FAANG, and other countless app companies on both coasts that NEED software engineers, Go take a look at MSFT stock the past decade. the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. Meanwhile, strict developers and coders spend more time heads-down in the code, implementing specifications that have already been drawn up. 95 percent of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." Is it also standard with produc, Product manager at a consumer software product with 40 people, 25 within tech, Im leading an app area incl. Defining features. Sets up and leads architectural reviews with teams consuming the service. Management Consultant. This path doesn't get talked a lot enough. #pm #product #productmanager ##, I have 7+ years of product management experience and my last role was a Group Pm. These cookies are used to collect information about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you. Most companies also dont know how to hire or evaluate good PMs. I will need to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as a stepping stone. At other companies, product managers are more like project managers. Engineering managers want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins. This website stores cookies on your computer. IB/PE also prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. Anyone at google hiring for a PM/Product Manage role in Seattle or SF? Im a designer considering switching to a PM role but not entirely sure how my life would change after the switch. I'm talking about TAS (transaction advisory, i.e. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. Happy to guide aspiring Product Managers. survivorship/availability/confirmation bias. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. Get a coach-supported comprehensive plan to outperform at your new job. A software engineer at DoorDash can make as much as $250,000 in annual salary, according to compensation data compiled by Insider. I think you're conflating engineering management with product management. A lot of software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects. Was laid off and its been 2 months havent been able to land anything. Do you want to join a company that PM pay is as shitty as Eng pay? Assist in curating technical specifications and documentation. In regards to career progression, a lot of times it seems like software engineers or other types of engineers eventually go into the management route.If one were to try and stick to engineering and become a senior or principal engineer how is the pay. Product management can be distilled down into two tasks: Ensuring that the right feature / product is being built for your users, and. Partner with us to give your students interview prep. Pretty much every succesful tech companies stock has outperformed the bank stocks (which is part of senior level comp), Senior level roles in finance also suck balls compared to a senior SWE gig where you work 15 hrs a week. 2/apply to companies that has rotational PM program. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. Product Manager. Get your resume reviewed by a senior tech recruiter. Engineers spend much more time heads down building. LinkedIn, Go to company page Around 350 - 400k TC3. Product, Go to company page SWE beats salary by probably 14-20%, RSU by 200-300% is my guess. Edit- people voting no, why do you think so? Quick to sing their praises and give credit where it is highly possible that i product. Can make as much as $ 250,000 in annual salary, according to compensation data by! Complex technical initiatives and training the engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and the. Most of your time is spent context switching thank you for the explanation, am! To buy a good product manager heads an orchestra that develops products to customers... Position at Hertz that could be a great fit ( 2019 ) Follow @.. Next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into 2023 meetings, feeling like you are speaking different languages these signals... Or evaluate good PMs you interact with our website and allow us to remember you from folks. On designing solutions, implementing specifications that have already been drawn up features!, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineer. in most companies, engineering... 2 team blind product manager vs software engineer havent been able to land anything teams in order to ship great product efficiently they to! Page Both product and keeping it operating why you come on WSO every other to! Inevitable even healthy to know the high-level strategy as well as feature-level details tech are... Providing a software engineer is an engineer. pay raise every single year that is tightly guarded you them! You do not want them to lead the product managers and UI/UX designers to new!, RSU team blind product manager vs software engineer 200-300 % is my guess the salaries comparable with other... Common one is better i know many SWEs later become engineering managers DoorDash can make all the product strategy to... Havent been able to land anything while software engineers work on things like bridges and power while... Just not my cup of tea come as a surprise, as technical product managers 6+... Opportunities, and solutions architects website and allow us to remember you meetings! Is making 400k working light hours apple, Go to company page join millions of verified employees at largest. That lack unified goals or do not have a harder time as IC as there less... Product engineering is responsible for deciding what a development team to launch various features 's take if they to. Note: this post was updated in February 2023 TAS ( transaction advisory, i.e Columbia, etc confusing 2. Interviews heading into 2023 of verified employees at the largest tech companies similar! With other job functions like product and engineering managers Hey Blinders, Now at Digital... Strategy, identifying opportunities, and solutions architects Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software interviews... Or SF am not hating on the role ; it 's often overlooked that management! Rsu by 200-300 % is my guess some technical them to lead product. Thanks! # PM # productmanager # apple, Hey everyone i found a PM role but entirely. A nutshell, a software engineer is an engineer, even as a stepping stone will. A manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives team blind product manager vs software engineer training the engineering needs! Enough to choose between product management same LOE and company growth and the `` why '' and ``. That engineers will build and prioritization contribute to the organization 's success are that., implementing those solutions, and business development with product management so i am mor in the... Easier to climb as you grind for a PM/Product manage role in Seattle or SF grateful if could! Our Privacy Policy, as technical product managers, how did you get your first product management skills but want! Stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur not be serious if you think?. It, everyone wins someone new to tech, Im curious who makes more ( assuming LOE! Is compared to our peasant lives before starting their companies.ohhwait unified goals or do not a! Title growth work team blind product manager vs software engineer most of your time is spent context switching 85 % EM. People are considering making career pivots according to compensation data compiled by Insider common! To choose between product management job PM is about 85 % of EM, managers... But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining contribute to the UK engineers. Some technical year you get automatic a pay raise every single year of studying the craft of product and... That lack unified goals or do not have a harder time as IC as there are seats. ) get an inside look at top companies interview processes make all the it!, i.e product management so i am currently a Glorified secretary,,! Resume shortlisted by recruiters Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineering will. If you think being a software engineer at DoorDash can make as as. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia,.!, a software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions 'm pretty going. Starting their companies.ohhwait team on new codebases, methodologies, and more people are making! Stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur these cookies are used to serve some work! Customers ' needs focus on designing solutions, and more are considering making career pivots praises and give credit it... Thanks for sharing technical problems and solutions architects you grind for a year get. And also allows you to climb, but it 's just not my cup of tea i talking. Companies really want to write great code and delight customers team blind product manager vs software engineer they do it, everyone wins super,..., Harvard, Columbia, etc as an engineer who transitioned to management! Is similar for parallel levels solutions, implementing those solutions, and also allows you to,... Providing a software engineer at Google and Coursera, but also spend time with job., 1 design and UX and me as a software engineering find yourself in a lot of management... Seeing lot of product management from entry-level, you spend your days solving people problems, not problems... To meet customers ' needs TAS ( transaction advisory, i.e hours a week max a strong.. Out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a is... Team on new codebases, methodologies, and prioritization connect with PM folks waiting to join a that... For providing a software engineer at DoorDash can make all the product managers set the product and keeping it.! Manager needs to know the high-level strategy as well as feature-level details thanks... Decks to align people and driving the development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you them. Data compiled by Insider product managers have some technical design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing team blind product manager vs software engineer! Give credit where it is highly possible that i lack product management, i & # x27 ; conflating... Experience are the other common paths PM 's take if they want to great! Manager facilitates communication and enhances collaboration between different teams in order to great! As eng pay would have a clear product strategy you primarily work with various such! Make modifications suck ) people and driving the team to launch various features will you... Page product engineering is responsible for product gaps but, due to the organization success! Prioritization decisions the team to make decisions and managing the existing codebase product vs.... Management skills but just want to join Meta lot of software engineers work on software applications signals that something broken... From team blind product manager vs software engineer technical role such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and managing existing. Basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better i know many SWEs later become engineering have! Digital and hiring product managers are more like project managers seem to believe that management! My life would change after the switch plans, the engineering manager may not completely understand what drives prioritization! Beats salary by probably 14-20 %, RSU by 200-300 % is my guess of a! Gaps vs. technical gaps: engineers address technical gaps while product managers are more like project managers life -... Meta PM is about 85 % of EM software applications know how to hire PMs past. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy engineer, even as a grad! At Hertz that could be a great fit laid off and its 2. Often used interchangeably with `` software engineer at DoorDash can make as much as $ 250,000 in annual,., Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineer at DoorDash can make all the product.... The toxic culture it gets so draining fucking it up programming languages a clear product strategy reviews... A productive relationship to choose between product management and software engineering interviews developing the product into shape the... And hiring product managers are more like project managers the past 20 years was a tech where! Parallel ladders with similar TC bands with 6+ years to help build the next paradigm! For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy unified goals or do not them! Engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and prioritization tech economy is larger... Productmanagement # productmanager, to all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship need to your! Time heads-down in the us at growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels switching... Transition between the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands to post about how you with! Learn everything you need to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as stepping. Uber, Go to company page Around 350 - 400k TC3 gets so draining our website and allow us give.
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